The Fence across the pond

Daisy Alioto and Francis Zierer in conversation with Charlie Baker.

I have been following The Fence since 2020 and consider it my primary source for all things happening in London and the UK. A sampling of recent topics from their Off The Fence newsletter includes a bingo card tracking the grievances of Peter Hitchens, an interview with a Diana Spencer lookalike on OnlyFans and some words of hate for Tory politician turned mental health podcaster Alastair Campbell.

On the occasion of launching their second newsletter, Capital Letter, we reached out to The Fence founding editor Charlie Baker to discuss the geographic makeup of their audience, working above the oldest strip club in the UK, and more. Keep scrolling to listen to the full episode. — Daisy Alioto

Francis Zierer: Charlie, I want to thank you because I did subscribe to The Fence. In print as well, though I made the mistake first of selecting the UK subscription, which is about half the price. But you emailed me directly to rectify the problem, so I just wanted to commend you on the record for your fantastic customer service.

Charlie Baker: That's the one aspect I really care about. I think the advantage of doing something in print is you're able to see what you've been making in the kitchen go out to the world. I still manage most of the aspects of distribution myself. I'm very happy to do that because I remember when the only people who subscribed were my friends—and Graydon Carter. 

FZ: How long into publishing the magazine did you get the office?

CB: It was in the summer of 2021 after we'd finished issue eight. We’ve been here for four years now. The office is above a very famous landmark in London called The Windmill Theatre, which is the oldest strip club in the United Kingdom, open since before World War II. There’s a joke that they were open throughout World War II because they were “never clothed”. Back when Britain was a deeply conservative country, they got around the ban on nudity by doing a frozen act of tableux vivant. 

FZ: This is the perfect place for you guys to be. Is the rent really cheap? It doesn't seem like an indie rag would have an office.

CB: So the office building is owned by Soho Estates, which was started by a guy called Paul Raymond, who once owned the Windmill and then set up basically the UK versions of Penthouse and lads’ mags. His empire boomed in the 1970s, and our offices are in the old offices of his empire. The free floors of the office building are given to creative businesses to maintain Soho's artistic character. 

DA: Speaking of the culture of Soho, you launched a new newsletter called Capital Letter. It’s about London, real-time information of what people should be doing and seeing. Is there a hole in the media market right now for something like this?

CB: I wanted to do something that was really functional and really honest, and I felt that there was an opening for us. The functionality is really important. There's this amazing book called Alternative London, which just lists all the things that you can do in London on the fly—the absolute best places to buy antiques, the best places to buy cheap wine, how to get furniture for free. I thought it was quite interesting, in the digital age where information is technically supposed to be free, people are much more zealous about gatekeeping their absolute best tips. We're pulling up the drawbridge. 

A quarter of it is about present day London and the rest of it is dedicated to the history of London. There seemed to be a really wide open space for people to write about London and its history in a way that you can interact with it. 

FZ: Who is your audience? I'm part of the audience internationally now. How much of the audience of The Fence would you say is in London versus the UK more broadly versus international?

CB: I would say of our existing audience, 40% is in London. Probably, 45% in the rest of the UK. 5% is in Europe and the rest of the world. And then 10% is in the States. That's a great aspect of American culture. People are interested in what's going on internationally. Part of what I wanted to create with Capital Letter, is something that people who are coming to London for a period of time will want to read. 

DA: What’s a quintessential piece that you've published that most embodies the ethos of The Fence for people who haven't read it yet?

CB: John Phipps did a story in the summer of 2020 where he interviewed a lot of people with terrible names like Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. He got a suite of really funny and largely quite moving responses. 

I think it ends with somebody with the name Jeffrey Epstein responding to him saying, “Sorry, John, I don't really understand what you're asking for here.” It hadn’t occurred to him that there was some duality in sharing a name with Jeffrey Epstein. 

FZ: Tell us about you as an editor. 

CB: I think the most important job with editing is commissioning. You’ve got to make sure that the person you've commissioned has got enough time, has the resources, understands it well—doesn't feel like they're being compelled to do something. 

People have different processes. Some people like texting you updates and that's part of what works for them. Some people are like how a cat drops a mouse as a present. They will just drop back into your inbox two months later with a perfect piece.

DA: Starting a magazine is an act of optimism. I'm curious if you feel optimistic about the future right now. And if you have cynicism, like how are you handling that through this platform that you have?

CB: We’ve got an “established brand” to use corporate speak. It's no secret that we're doing more newsletters and that's going to be the way we expand. We’re going to keep The Fence as a print flagship and expand digitally, doing different paid newsletters. That is where we're seeing the most revenue growth. 

The thing is The Fence is £7.50 on the newsstands. If the magazine is on the newsstands, to be realistic. The New Yorker is £7.50. The average consumer is going to choose the one they’ve heard of, right? You can't say, “It’s an independent magazine.” The consumer isn't going to care about that. And people also have a warped sense of value because all the other print magazines can print hundreds of thousands of copies with special subscriber deals and advertising revenue, which isn't available to us.

I'm worried about the global situation, but I'm not particularly worried about The Fence. Are you worried about Dirt? 

DA: I feel the same way. I feel a lot of concern and negativity about the world. But I do feel empowered within this platform that I've built and carved out to continue to deliver things to people that are interesting, beautiful, enriching, and relevant.

Maybe you and I can do an abroad exchange where I'll come run Dirt out of London for a month and you can come run The Fence out of the New York suburbs. My offer to you is a little bit less enticing because we don't have an office, but I think there's something here. 💂

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